brainygamer
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 342
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Reply with quote | #1 |
Post your thoughts on Mission 4 here:
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Michael Abbott
The Brainy Gamer blog and podcast |
| | davidcarlton
Moderator
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 354
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Reply with quote | #2 |
So, after the previous mission, I was thinking that this might be the first VGC game that I don't make it through. (I did finally finish Majora's Mask last week!) Basically, levels are taking more time than I really have: I don't want to spend most evenings going through the game. And I wasn't particularly enjoying the levels: too much doing something wrong, reloading, failing, reloading, repeat ad nauseum. So when I combined that with being afraid that I'd make a wrong turn and get lost for half an hour, it wasn't clear that this was a particularly good use of my time.
I figured I wouldn't give up just yet, though. For one thing, it's too early; for another thing, I was pretty sure I was playing the game wrong - I need to lighten up a bit and use my inventory to help me through situations, instead of holding on to the inventory for some mythical time which never comes. (Or rarely comes, because of course the first mission teaches you that you should hold on to several of your water arrows. Sigh.) Also, I shouldn't worry too much about getting treasure - the extra items hadn't made any difference yet. So I decided to make an honest effort to use items to make it through situations in the next level - with luck, my experience would improve the way it did after a few levels of Deus Ex.
And, as it turns out, the Bonehoard was a much more pleasant experience for me than the prison, but not for that reason! Mostly, I think, it was that I just made it through the level much more quickly than the prison - I only had to really stop and think about what I was doing once (when I first entered the main zombie-filled crypt area), and in fact I made it to the end directly enough that I decided to go back and do a bit more looting.
I didn't really manage to keep up my vow to use items to let me sneak past stuff, though, because there basically weren't any areas where I needed items to sneak. Though I did use a good number of items when fighting the zombie hordes in the crypt; maybe if I'd been in a different mood, I would have made that portion a lot more tedious for myself by taking interminable amounts of time to analyze paths (or maybe I just would have run through it instead of fighting, I'm not sure); as it was, I went into the room with four zombies on the floor and one exit, dispatched them all with holy water, and (after a few tries) mowed down another eight or so zombies coming in through the door, mostly with fire arrows but also with some holy water.
So the upshot is that, when the game turns into an action game, my action game reflexes take over, and I do okay. Still haven't gotten my stealth reflex down, though. And I'm still not convinced that I'll make it through the whole game, but I'll stick it out for at least a couple more levels before re-evaluating. |
| | Gravey
Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 28
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Reply with quote | #3 |
Navigating the last section of the Bonehoard based on the sound of the horn is such a stroke of genius that it nearly makes up for the rest of the level: zombies, burricks, and the complete lack of stealth three proper missions in.
This definitely felt like a shorter level than Cragscleft, but populating it with opponents of animal-level intelligence probably helped with that, as I ran or at least sauntered through most of it. It took me an hour playing on Normal, after Hard for the previous missions, just so I can hope to keep up with the schedule. The zombie/burrick direction is one I'm glad to hear Thief II corrected. Dashing around tunnels became a little tedious (the conveniently marked "WHERE AM I?" on the map is a nice touch--I'd like Google Maps to do that when the GPS can't find me), but arriving in the Halls of Echoing Repose with a poor map, a compass, and my headphones was a real treat.
What'd I say about Thief? It's the audio, man. Something else I appreciate since my sense of direction in 3D games is terrible.
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| | Kloreep
Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 250
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Reply with quote | #4 |
I still don't like those Burricks, either; unlike the zombies, I haven't warmed to them on this second playthrough. I'm not quite sure why. Is it something about the Burricks themselves, like that I can't blackjack them? Or is it just that they always seem to be placed in the most annoying parts of a level to navigate? At any rate, as you say, they are surprisingly easy to run past a lot of the time.
This level also features a lot more platforming than I remember in Thief II. I've never gotten through more than the first four or so missions of Thief II, mind you. However, the descent down to one of the gemstones is the sort of platforming-type challenge that I don't think I've seen in the Thief II levels I've played. (Can't remember which stone, but you'd know the room - the one with the beams and the purple projectiles firing everywhere.) I suppose it makes sense in that all the Thief II levels (again, that I've visited) were designed to be places that people were living in, while Thief varies it up between the old and decayed and the still-used.
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| | fieldmouse
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 6
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Reply with quote | #5 |
I love the desolate, hidden atmosphere of remote locations and the gradual transition from urban city, to mountain barracks to tomb worked well for me. I am finding the atmosphere the game's most enchanting aspect. It is compelling. I like to think that the Bonehoard hearkens back to something like Rogue, perhaps. It subtly expands the scope of a 'thief' beyond simple burglary. This level could be a Dungeons and Dragons module (something like Gygax's Tomb of Horrors). One of those old-school dungeon crawl types (which I must admit exercise a peculiar and potent power over my imagination). But with the necessity of imagining yourself the sole remaining party member. A rogue necessarily can't combat every creature he sees. That, and the emphasis on traps and exploration. For a good portion of the level, the burricks and zombies seem relatively sparsely placed, which encourages this focus. In the first two levels, but here especially, I get a sense of immense solitude. And the kind of hum and clang of working machinery in the title screen, for me, reflects the pulsing world outside. And I suppose the weird life within the tomb - I see it maybe as a metaphor. This gives the game a sort of imminence - perpetually hanging in the balance, patient but expectant and necessarily always aware.
I am grateful, I think, for this level - for its gleeful disruption of the established pace. As just a side note, too, and this could perhaps be some sort of nostalgia talking, but I find the Dark Engine (and the Quake and Unreal engines to their respective games) to lend something to the atmosphere. I normally have a personal distaste for the early 3D graphics of say the Nintendo 64, but I think with Thief the engine acts as a style rather than a limitation. That is, part of how I am experiencing the game, I think, is rooted inexorably in my experiencing it visually in this way, feeling the way the game world lives this way. (And I think I recall reading in another post, in another thread! I apologize for not quoting you more precisely!) that Quake itself had that same kind of gloom and darkness almost inherent to its engine. There is something unique about it that the kind of photo-realistic tendency which many AAA games are approaching I think can sometimes miss (not that they don't often have unique styles as well - Brutal Legend's visuals for example). Now, I could be all wet - and Thief could merely appear this way because it is an older instance of that realistic tendency (displaced only by time and technology). At least, it is impossible, I think, to divorce a game from its aesthetic. And at the same time that the game seems to change in relation to the developing media around it, so does it stay the same. But this contradiction (on that technical level) seems almost unique to video games (though perhaps it applies to film as well, and especially films being generated with computers). In microcosm, anyway, it seems at least to impart the character of the times, in the same way that literary style might - and I find it fascinating to see the breadth of gaming history laid out. Though, there is the real spectre, I think, of technologies advancing beyond our being able to use old software (I had a bear of a time trying to get Thief running and even now it crashes frequently after DDFix) - though, I find myself thanking the world at large for producing such enterprising folks as the author of the DDFix patch - which only goes to remind me of the structure in the world which produces and makes games possible. It is highly technical but it has less distanced, as one might hypothesize, than engendered a sense of community in all participants (much as I am delighted by the congregation here!).
But an addendum, by way of summation: I suppose I mean to suggest that sometimes technological limitations actually work to encourage aesthetic playfulness or creativity. I find none of Thief's particular technical limitations any barrier to immersion (indeed, I think they suit it perfectly). Though I do not mean to suggest limitations are necessary for stylistic uniqueness or beauty - but that now, upon raising the question, I am left wondering how profound an influence this truly has on art direction - or even if it is visually that we experience a game most primarily? I am very intrigued by this contention between realism and the deliberately artful..
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| | Fae
Registered: 10/23/09
Posts: 36
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Reply with quote | #6 |
You can blackjack burricks, although they tend to be noisy about it.
I had a lot of fun with this level. On the previous levels, I'd remembered where most everything was and found myself just going through the motions with little opportunity to deviate. Here, I could run around much more freely, not having to worry about getting overwhelmed in a tiny corridor, and there are plenty of places where enemies can't follow - despite the whole undead thing, it's a much friendlier area than the prison was. I reloaded less often than I usually do, trying to make greater use of my items instead, and left quite a few zombie gibs in my wake even when it wasn't strictly necessary. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I'd even managed to find all the loot.
It's a beautiful level, too, particularly when it comes to the sound design. The only complaints I have are that rope arrows are buggy and ladders are annoying - I died several times while trying to jump to or from one of them. This isn't a serious flaw because of the availability of quicksaves, but it's still annoying to have to need them to complete what should be simple jumps.
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| | MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 197
| | jordan_magnuson
Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 26
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Reply with quote | #8 |
Quote: The only complaints I have are that rope arrows are buggy and ladders are annoying - I died several times while trying to jump to or from one of them. This isn't a serious flaw because of the availability of quicksaves, but it's still annoying to have to need them to complete what should be simple jumps.
Agree with that... geez, I had trouble on some of the ladders.
What I like most about this level, I think, is the deviation from the pace and design of the previous levels, which others have mentioned. I like the fact that Thief is a game about stealth, timing, etc., but Looking Glass isn't afraid to throw a level like this into the mix, and say, "hey, sometimes you've got to run through an zombie-laden maze to find some loot so you can pay the rent--stealthy thief vocation be damned!"
I also enjoyed the typical careful design, and all the little details that made the level feel, not exactly "real," but at least fun to explore.
The most aggravating thing for me was that, when I found the final cave pathway to the horn, I thought it was just another entrance to the same caves I had already come from, so I spent another hour or so mucking about, walking in circles.
Oh, and I found the Burricks oddly comforting. I figured, because I was playing a game, that the things would just charge me and kill me as soon as I got near them, but instead they behaved oddly like Bison, who may or may not be interested enough to trample you, which added to the feeling of realism for me (kind of like the "annoying" level design which sometimes features almost identical areas, as real life often does).
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Jordan Magnuson
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| | itsbenderingtime
Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 1
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Reply with quote | #9 |
I feel like when this game gets discussed around the internet (although not necessarily here), the creature-based levels get a bad rap and this is held up as the prototypical example. Really though, I think it really highlights some of the things that I find Thief does better than just about any other game I've played. The two big moments in this level for me were:
1) The descent into the "Where am I" section of the level and the first encounter with the burricks. It served as a wakeup call to me that the game was going to give me a map, but it was not afraid to throw me into a place with no advance information and make me figure it out myself. When I saw the burrick, I mentioned to my fiancee who had just walked through the room "This game gets stranger and stranger the more I play" - and it really did, in this level and beyond. The game never lets you feel like you've gotten this world down cold, and every level gives you one or more moments where you just stare and think "what is THAT?"
2) Those backwards-facing arrows that MoriarityL mentioned. They confused the bajeezus out of me until I realized that they were put there by the grave robber so that he could find his way back out again (you know, had he survived). I love games that are willing to give you narrative depth in this way - the story of the grave-robber party is written into the level for those who are inquisitive enough (and/or aware enough) to look for it.
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| | MoriartyL
Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 197
| | oozo
Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 22
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Reply with quote | #11 |
All of a sudden, I did remember again why I never finished the game when it first came out, in spite of really loving it for what it tries and what it achieves to be in its finest moments. This level nearly made me join Mr Carlton and giving up - for the reasons that were already mentioned.
I do not per se dislike the non-human adversaries. As I said, I have some issues with the undead, but the Burricks are another case altogether - where the human guards do inspire caution and the zombies do still give me a good scare every now and then (always falling for the same old trick, always...), the Burricks inspire nothing so much as pity. More than any other enemy in Thief, they seem just to do their routines, minding their business, and the designers did a fine job introducing them not as ravishing beasts, but as beasts defending their natural habitat - the gurgling sounds they make are almost comforting, and when I got sight of my first Burrick close by a cadaver, I seriously found it to be kinda touching. It's clear that they do not find delight in killing, but are urged to do so by swashbuckling adventurers and thieves. I totally would have left them alone.
This said, I forgot all of this once frustration kicked in. I seriously do appreciate the efforts of providing a huge space and filling it here and there with explorable details and stories (anybody patched together the exact order and fate of the different tomb raiders whose remains you stumble upon during your own personal raid?). But, as others have already said, levels are extremely spacious and somewhat repetitive, at least in their textures, and optical or other clues on finding your way are much too rare (the arrows are probably meant to have a double purpose, guiding a way, but at the same time contributing to the said environmental story-telling; however, I didn't trust them enough). I know that my spatial sense is pretty lousy and that I should play more FPS, but still - it's not only that I lost my way, I never even had found it to begin with. I was simply not capable of putting together a coherent architectural plan of most of this level.
How many of you could draw a map of the tombs even after having spent probably nearly an hour inside of them?
So, after a while, I was frustrated enough to let go of all the role-playing and immersion I was talking about earlier on - I just killed every Burrick in my way, because, well, they were easy to kill and at least that way nobody was disturbing my endless circling around the same spots and places...
But even so, I had to give up at one point and let me guide literally step by step by a walk-through - which was all the more frustrating after the relative swift run to the great Burrick cave and from there, once I had found the right exit, to the horn.
But then, oh boy, along came the Mystic's soul. I am playing the Thief: Gold edition for the first time, and I can see that some of the new ideas there must have seemed, well, like pure gold on the drawing-board. But gosh, aren't they once somebody with a sub-par spatial sense comes along. Thing is - spoilers ahead - that in order to achieve this objective, you have to light up 5 torches, meaning that you need 5 fire arrows. I have learned from the walk-through that there are at least two ways to get those, but one is the result of excessive scanning a zombie-infested floor; the other one asks for a pretty random discovery halfway through the level, which means that you totally have to make it back all the way to get there - ironically, the only clue on how to get to the Mystic's soul is hidden in the same place. If you haven't gotten there before, you do not have much chance of figuring it out on your own in the first place.
Plus, there's no narrative justification whatsoever on why Garret is literally dying to get that one bloody gem. This, too, and the fact that you can't shy back from the objective once you have accepted one level of difficulty makes those moments feel extra-sour.
That, my co-players, is what I call dodgy design.
Which is all the sadder when it is followed by one of those brilliant moments, when you feel more Indiana Jones than in all the Uncharteds of the world combined... the way traps are implemented into the levels is pretty fine indeed. There are no "spider-senses" tickling, highlighting possible traps the way a lot of RPGs (or "Arkham Asylum") do. Instead, you see holes that might or might not be there to have something shooten out of them, you have a floor full of skeletons and more fleshy remains of less careful adventurers. And you can have extra fun by throwing around body-parts in order to see how some of the traps work. Of course, the final trap killed me nevertheless once, but the feeling of shock was intense enough to be delightful. It's just a bit often a very rocky road to those highlights in "The Dark Project", and it takes me way more time than I was hoping for.
Anyway, I've learned my lesson - "Normal" it will be from now on, even though I love the bigger challenge of not killing somebody and the heightened feeling of vulnerability that the "Hard" and "Expert"-mode do offer.
And next up is "Assassin", which in its first few minutes has soothed my aching wounds again - THAT's how stealth is meant to be playing out.
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| | jordan_magnuson
Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 26
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Reply with quote | #12 |
Quote: This, too, and the fact that you can't shy back from the objective once you have accepted one level of difficulty
THAT is a brilliant idea (and seems so obvious). Why the heck can't Garret back out from getting a particular gem or other if he discovers that, well, it's just not worth it?
Good commentary oozo.
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Jordan Magnuson
NecessaryGames.com |
| | Fae
Registered: 10/23/09
Posts: 36
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Reply with quote | #13 |
Come now, Garrett would never do something so amateurish as backing out. He wouldn't be much of a master thief if he let little things like ravenous dead and a lack of fire arrows get in his way!
(Seriously, though, changeable difficulty levels are a very good idea that, sadly, few games implement. Thief does allow you to change them between levels, so the main reason you can't change the difficulty mid-level is probably that it wouldn't be easy to implement - given the number of changes between difficulty levels, I think it's perfectly reasonable that you can only change difficulty between levels.)
(Also, in Thief Gold, another way of collecting fire arrows for that objective is to repeatedly backstab the fire spirit who's conveniently positioned right next to the torches you need to light. Every time he runs away he drops a fire arrow.)
Quote: How many of you could draw a map of the tombs even after having spent probably nearly an hour inside of them?
I bet I could!  Sure, I wouldn't have the burrick tunnels down exactly, but I'd be able to keep track of where the junctions were and where each path led. The level is mostly linear up until the last area, with just a few side areas along the way.
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| | oozo
Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 22
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Reply with quote | #14 |
@Fae Guess it's really me who sucks then  Long gone are the days when I was willing to draw maps with pencil and paper, you know, back when auto-mapping was all but unheard of. Maybe I should return to this measure...
I guess an option to tag walls (something that "Deathtrap Dungeon" provided) in-game would have helped as well - you know, following the other adventurer's lead. But I guess that too would not be the work of somebody who wants to leave no traces whatsoever. Then again, I think that Zombies and Burricks wouldn't really be smart enough to get the clues... (I remember having done something similar in other games without an explicit option to mark your ways - you know, picking up removable objects, dropping them in front of exits you have already passed by. Guess I could try something similar here as well next time I get lost - there are enough skulls, boulders etc. lying around in any case. It would be more in touch with the game-world and a better example of what people around here called the idea of mastering your enviroment as a crucial point of the Thief-franchise...)
Oh, and I have to admit that I didn't even think of backstabbing the Fireshadow; I just put him out from afar with water-arrows (of which I didn't have enough left at that point to get 5 fire-arrows out of him). That's a personal problem for me with some of the enemies in "Thief" - even though the game-mechanics would allow for this tactic, it seems pretty unreasonable on a narrative level.
I mean, seriously, would you try to get close enough to a living fire to ram your sword into it? Or would you club a gargantuan lizzard, hoping that you can take it out with one blow? Maybe if they would provide you with some more visual feedback in one of the first levels (not exactly a "God of War"-like takedown, but something along these lines), hinting at the fact that Garret pretty much can take out whatever he likes, I would have tried my ways on the more unusual enemies as well.
As it stands, though, it seems like a purely game-mechanical thing that doesn't make much sense in the case of certain enemies. That's why I prefer human guards, by the way. |
| | ILR
Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 125
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Reply with quote | #15 |
This level was surprisingly fun to play. I don't know whether it was included as a Tomb Raider homage or such, but the overall environment does share a lot of characteristics with the first two Tomb Raider games. It's impressive how many levels of fundamentally differing playing and environmental styles Looking Glass managed to cram into this game. What's more, that variety does a lot to keep the game fresh.
The zombies and burricks are boring enemies and conflict resolution with physical violence in Thief tends to be annoyingly clumsy, so the merits of this level are entirely on the architectural side. Fortunately that side is very impressive especially in the main hall. All the towering slabs, the occasional buried valuable trinket, the traps, the esoteric pathways... it's like I'm looting the cursed tomb of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh. Locating the horn with the environmental audio cue is one more feather into the cap of Thief's audio design.
I also have to share fieldmouse's appreciation for the idiosyncracies of Dark Engine. It bestows a unique charm in this kind of a semi-fantastic setting whereas the more ordinary environments leave a more underwhelming impression.
On expert level, you have to find the second additional gem from a hideous death-trap that is pure old school save-reload gaming from the annals of history. Surprisingly I didn't mind retrying ten times to measure my jump distance to a foot-wide platform.
I'll try to catch up to the Cathedral level this weekend. Should be at least remotely doable.
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| | Kylotan
Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 19
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Reply with quote | #16 |
Still playing this one - only got into the top part of the tombs proper after about 1h45, with a fair bit of that spent trying to find anything of interest in the burrick caves. As such, I've not read the rest of the thread, so forgive me if I've repeated something already said.
When I first played this level back in '99 or whenever it was, I got into the main tomb area ('Halls of Echoing Repose') and took out most of the lights in the northern-most set of chambers. In the end I was stuck in pitch-darkness near a corpse with the sound of zombies marching around me. Due to my rather timid playing style I was too scared to proceed at that point, and I left the game for several months as a result. (Apparently I'm not the only one: Lytha, who was a regular on the TTLF board back when Thief was more recent, apparently had the same feeling.) Later, I came back and completed this level and indeed the rest of the game, but this was a defining point for me.
Coming back to it today, I can remember why I hated this level. And maybe I can see why some people hate the zombies by association, though I maintain that it's not down to them being zombies per se. It's that you seem to come into this level with very few options. I know 2 routes into the Halls and both of them enter into well lit areas with far too many zombies to hide from. I suppose speed is part of stealth but the idea of just running until I find a ladder or something is not very fulfilling. Nor is loading up the holy water and blasting through 4 or 5 of them (though that is undoubtedly a practical approach). It just feels like the designers are pushing you a little too far from the stealthy aspect here by not giving you the usual tools to handle the situation that you're used to.
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Ben Sizer
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| | Kylotan
Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 19
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Reply with quote | #17 |
Finished now - took me a few seconds under 4 hours, all objectives achieved on Expert, all loot found (2450).
In the end I destroyed pretty much every zombie on the level. I sneaked for the majority of it, only killing a few by luring them towards traps (1 towards the trapped walkway over the water in the southwest-most chamber, and 2 towards the fireball that fires towards the doorway above the main ramp), but in the end I wanted to go down into the chamber with 4 zombies lying on the floor, so I fired up the holy water and took them out from the staircase above. The sound of exploding flesh drew the attention of the 5 or 6 patrolling zombies outside in the south hallways, and I took most of them out with the same vial of water. That left just a pair patrolling downstairs who I removed soon after, one as I went into the room with the dead Hammerite, the other as I charged my water from the font in the Chapel. Once stealth is abandoned, you may as well go the whole way...
(When I first played this level almost 10 years ago, I had a similar approach to the zombies lying on the floor, shooting them from above. That time, as with this time, I attracted the attention of the patrolling zombies, but on that occasion I didn't get to destroy them all. Imagine my dismay when 2 minutes later a procession of 5 or 6 zombies had walked all the way around the Halls and up the ramp to follow me to the top, where one wrong direction meant I was trapped and killed. Decent pathfinding for a 90s game!)
This level is one of the most fascinating for me, as it is one of my favourites in the Thief narrative. But undoubtedly it's one of the worst from a purely ludic point of view, with the 2 platform puzzles being largely incongruous to the rest of the gameplay (and causing about 20 reloads on my part), the zombies being presented in quantities too large to avoid and in rooms that are too light to hide in, and the burricks again requiring that you either kill them or run past. Your Thief skills are wasted here. Thankfully, both burricks and zombies are presented in later levels in ways that complement the gameplay more appropriately. It's just a shame that so many players probably never persevered that far.
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Ben Sizer
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