brainygamer
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Reply with quote | #1 |
When you've finished this part of the game, post your thoughts on it here.
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Michael Abbott
The Brainy Gamer blog and podcast |
| | Gangles
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 23
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Reply with quote | #2 |
In an effort to be stealthy, it seems I missed a whole lot on this level. I snuck up to the statue level by hopping on boxes, so I never went to see the hobo for the front door key. Furthermore, I went straight upstairs to where the boss was hiding and missed out on saving the captured agent.
Next time I'm going to be a little more thorough about exploring 
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Matthew Gallant
The Quixotic Engineer |
| | mentis
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 138
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Reply with quote | #3 |
Since we're going to be taking a long time to go through this, I might suggest replaying the first mission if you didn't accomplish those objectives as desired.
Also, my own personal rule for RPGs and adventure games is "always go where you are not supposed to first." Meaning that exploration comes before objective completion ^_^.
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| | Jashin
Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 65
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Reply with quote | #4 |
Going straight to the top of Lady Liberty is a completely valid style.
But this is your very first time, then have a look around. The optional stuff provide a lot of fun dialogs and interactions.
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| | StolenName
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 34
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Reply with quote | #5 |
O.k. Being an Australian, I'm probably one of the first online and I'm ready to chat about what I've been doing! Also, I've skipped the training mission.
I'll start by commenting on the introductory sequence. I found it surprising that at the onset, you are introduced to the bad guys and are privy to their scheme. Immediately, you know what the deal is, the Ambrosia is being kept from the poor, with the desire to cause an uprising.
Once play begins, it becomes immediately apparent that your brother is a humanitarian, that he sympathises with the rebels, or at the least doesn't want to simply kill them outright. Your options are left open, however, as to what path you would like to take and these are reflected in the weapons you're offered to choose from.
I'm not a fan of the crossbow, though it would help with non-lethal kills, however I accept the rifle because if I'm not going to die, I want to make sure I can pick my way out of sticky situations.
As I've noted elsewhere, I've decided to play through Deus Ex in a natural way. That is to say, I've decided to play through taking a route that appears logical and, I'm playing through with the object of avoiding death at all cost, without quick saving and reloading. If I screw up a stealth approach, I'm going to deal with the consequences as best I can and live with them, even if that means limping through the rest of the level.
In addition, I cannot condone the senseless killing of enemies, no matter how dastardly, at least not in cold blood. So, I'll be attempting to stealth through and knock out enemies where possible, however, should I screw up and I end up in a gun fight, I've no problem putting an enemy down. After all, it's then a fair fight, right?
I've begun by throwing skill points into rifles, which will be beneficial in close encounters when I've buggered up, into lockpicking and computer hacking, which are necessary skills when playing through stealthily.
Without delving into the details too much, I'll let those be discovered by first time players, I've found that my natural play style has made for some tense encounters. After making my way into the statue of liberty, using a combination of stealth and hacking, I was attempting to infiltrate the room where Gunter was being kept, without being seen.
This didn't work out quite the way I'd planned, however, as I went to stun one of the rebels from behind only to discover that I had in fact run out of batteries! Oh noes!
Instinctively, I pulled out the pistol and managed to get some quick shots into him but by this time, another character had sounded the alarm and I now had three foes to deal with. I managed to jam myself in a room and lock the door, at which point I readied a grenade and hid in an air vent that led into the room. The enemy saw my hiding spot and began to fire, but not before I'd sent a grenade in their direction.
BOOM! I took down one, maimed another who went sprinting away but a third enemy was still insistent on shooting. So, I made a kamikaze move at him with my crowbar and managed to clonk him in the head, but not before he'd crippled my left arm and badly wounded my leg.
I'd like to note that the AI in the game definitely has some issues, as enemies will run around in circles trying to get into doors, fight each other for the same position when shooting and will see you, the enemy, and then immediately forget you're there if you can duck out of their view. And, surprisingly, I'm rather happy to see that the fight or flight mechanism when the characters get to low health is in full effect, it's saved my buns a few times if you can get in some quick shots.
I've got some more critical thoughts on the game but thought I'd start off light for those who've not played it before, or in a while.
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Daniel Purvis
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| | StolenName
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 34
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Reply with quote | #6 |
@gangles Remember, there is no right or wrong way to go about things but yeah, I second everyone else here. Try and explore first. There are some great little mini-game sort of puzzles to discover, such as piling boxes up to get a round of shotgun shells, or swimming to ship wrecks in order to pick up a range of mods.
I'm not going to do these things this play through but I'd certainly recommend first timers do some exploring.
What made you think to follow the crates straight to the top, in any case? It was the path of least resistance, a challenge?
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Daniel Purvis
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| | Jashin
Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 65
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Reply with quote | #7 |
Dude you're spoiling the secret areas. Stick to just the stuff in the open.
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| | mentis
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 138
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Reply with quote | #8 |
So are we trying to keep it spoiler free? I suggest we use spoiler tags to alert readers of potential secrets etc.
What prevented me getting interested in Deus Ex the first two or three times that I tried to play it was actually the story. The very same story that is touted as being on of this game's best features. I was simply unable to get into it, and lost interest just a few missions in each time.
I didn't want that to happen this time around, so I read up a little bit on the references the game makes in it's Wikipedia article (link). I think it's helped, because now I am indeed a lot more interested. Where before I felt the characters to be rather bland at first, I am now seeing the greater depth of them sooner. I think my willingness to be engaged by the game is finally working ^_^.
My first impressions of the overall plot, in so far as it's been revealed, is how relevant it is to what is happening in the world today. This game was released before the events of 9/11, yet how prophetic it is in many ways. In particular, the twin towers issue in Deus Ex is a very interesting one...
"During sections of the game where the New York skyline is visible in the background, the two towers of the World Trade Center are noticeably missing; the real towers were destroyed a year after the game was released. Harvey Smith has explained that due to texture memory limitations, the portion of the skyline with the twin towers exists in the game's data files but had to be left out of the final game, with the other half mirrored in place of it. According to Smith, during the game's development, the developers justified the lack of the towers by stating that terrorists had destroyed the World Trade Center earlier in the game's storyline."
The fact that the statue of liberty had also been damaged is of even greater symbolic significance. Furthermore, the game continues to make various statements about terrorism and the fight against it. It doesn't get much more appropriate than that. But what is of particular interest to me, is that the game makes no specific statements neither for nor against one way to deal with terrorism. That choice seems to be left up to the player, and the two sides are always at odds in Deus Ex. Do you rush in and kill them all, or not? So perhaps it is raising that question to be considered in the real world as well.
The benefit being that we can experience some possible outcomes of either course of action. It is a "simulation" after all.
P.S.: I hope you guys don't mind, but I would like to also post my longer thoughts such as these on my blog. I'd rather not have to rewrite the experience from scratch ^_^, so hope you'll forgive a little cross-posting...
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| | brainygamer
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Registered: 07/13/08
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Reply with quote | #9 |
Quote: Originally Posted by mentis
P.S.: I hope you guys don't mind, but I would like to also post my longer thoughts such as these on my blog. I'd rather not have to rewrite the experience from scratch ^_^, so hope you'll forgive a little cross-posting...
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Michael Abbott
The Brainy Gamer blog and podcast |
| | Bus
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 114
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Reply with quote | #10 |
The Statue of Liberty's destruction just blew my mind upon the first playthrough, in utter awe at the world building happening right in front of my eyes. I just know if some lesser developer had made this the beginning of the game would have been an exciting FMV where the bombing is played out on top of pulse pounding music and flash cuts while I sit back, bored out of my mind.
It's interesting to think of the game level as a fixed point in time. Here, the destroyed Statue firmly places us in a world that has to think about terrorism at all times. The destruction is very much a part of that world's inescapable past. Games seem innately better at letting us enter a world after such a pivotal moment occurs rather than during the paradigm shift itself. I'm thinking of Deus Ex's brothers, Bioshock and the System Shock series. I wonder what difficulties there might be in depicting such a time (like a revolution) in a game.
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| | mentis
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 138
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Reply with quote | #11 |
Quote: I wonder what difficulties there might be in depicting such a time (like a revolution) in a game.
This is tangential, and not at all an answer, but I recall seeing one of the Call of Duty games depicting in a rather powerful way the events portrayed in the film Enemy at the Gates, with Russian troops trying to get across the river in boats and being shot at. And though I never played the game, I think there are several war games which do well at depicting a "revolutionary" moment in history.
Deus Ex on the other does so in a different manner, I know. But your comment just made me think of that.
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| | davidcarlton
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Registered: 07/14/08
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Reply with quote | #12 |
To keep these threads in order (though it's obvious for this one): this is the first area of the game. |
| | Bus
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 114
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Reply with quote | #13 |
That truly was an excellent sequence in, I believe, the very first Call of Duty. Very visceral, very good at evoking emotion. And I totally agree with you that several war games do an excellent job of showing revolutionary movements in the process of happening.
I wonder though if any let you experience the totality of the movement. Like, in Call of Duty's Stalingrad, it dumps you out pretty close to the "revolutionary" stage and you get to experience that part of it. The craziness and frenzy inherent in that time is palpable. I do though feel like games, for immediacy's sake, skip over the period of normalcy that it takes to appreciate a revolution later on.
I keep looking for an example in my personal gaming memory banks and coming up short. I was so excited when I thought "Half-Life 2?" because it showed City 17 pre and post revolution and a great deal during it. Then, I remembered that Gordon & Alyx were trapped in a slow teleport for a week or so while the revolution actually began. And thinking about it, that missing time does affect the feeling of the revolution. It feels less natural or organic. Too dictated by the necessities of the game design.
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| | StolenName
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 34
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Reply with quote | #14 |
I think in gaming there's a general concensus that the beginning of a game should immediately have an impact on the player, lest they just stop playing. The Half-Life games are some of the few that deviate from this by providing those lengthy cart rides into and out of the areas you're about to inhabit. Generally, however, the player is immediately given a gun, told how to use it, then pushed on their merry way.
Now that I think about it, the BioShock sequel would almost do better as a prequel, exploring the period during which the underclass uprising, and splicer prevelance was to take place, right before the New Years party and the dealing with the effects that occur after it.
This would be an interesting case to look at. Maybe you, as a citizen, have begun to notice people disappearing, people hoarding plasmids, overhear comments in bars or alley ways and decide to beging taking measures to prepare yourself. Could you imagine the confusion and panic that would have taken place in the bar (where you first electrocute a splicer in water) on New Year's Eve when the splicers come barging through, slaughtering everyone in their way? It would have been utter chaos.
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Daniel Purvis
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| | NordicNinja
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 27
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Reply with quote | #15 |
Seeing a decapitated Statue of Liberty was a moving experience for me, too. It evoked a bit of the slumbering anger, which most of us felt on 9/11. I wanted these terrorist goons to pay for shooting up my Lady.
(Easy on the BioShock references, I have yet to play it.)
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| | StolenName
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 34
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Reply with quote | #16 |
Haha. No problems NordicNinja.
I find it strange that so many of you have referred to the image of the shot up Statue of Liberty and the references to 9/11, especially NordicNinja's reaction to the sight.
Truthfully, I felt no reaction whatsoever.
As an Australian, I guess the destruction of the SoL is little more than a symbolic representation of the fall of Liberty, and in all honesty, in the context of Deus Ex, it's not really the terrorists that have brought freedom to it's knees but rather the US Government and **** **** who have facilitated this. The NSF, the terrorists are, in this circumstance, fighting for the good of the little people. When you reach the statue and have the opportunity to speak with the leader, Gold, he'll tell you this.
"When the companies are so large you don't know who you're working for, that's terror."
One of the most striking lines uttered by Gold, to me, is when he states that "UNATCO teach soldiers to fight when they're so young they still think it's a game ... look at you ... you're a killing machine." It's interesting because it makes you wonder, J.C. is a machine built to kill or pacify? As a gamer, is your first instinct when playing an FPS to shoot the first team mate you see just to see if he'll die? Do you just pull the trigger at nameless, faceless foes?
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Daniel Purvis
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| | Bus
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 114
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Reply with quote | #17 |
Yeah, it's a particularly American response and you point out well that the game does play with that. I never would have imagined reaching the top of the Statue only to find Gold, an incredibly well read and intelligent man who cogently points out the hypocrisies of JC's entire existence and the society that spawned him. That's a powerful subversion of expectations.
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| | Julian
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 40
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Reply with quote | #18 |
This is probably going to make me sound like a heartless bastard, but I laughed a little when I got to the top and was able to look down and see the decapitated statue. And hearing about the French rebel group and their reasoning made me cheer a little. After reading the in-game backstory about the group, I'm starting to hope I have an opportunity to switch sides at some point, and they're an option, especially considering their focus on nonviolent means. I mean, the SoL is purely a symbolic target and it would be easy enough to do that kind of damage to the structure without killing anybody, which makes it even cooler, IMO.
It's interesting how prescient the setting is, with the large-scale terrorist attack, and FEMA abusing a disaster to the detriment of the people (maybe? it sounds that way from the intro). I'm already hooked on the story, but I do love dystopian/cyberpunk stories and have a strong stomach for cheese. I'm definitely interested to see where it goes.
Anyway, I'm trying to take a nonlethal approach for the most part, although I do keep a pistol on me in case things get hairy. It's been kind of hard for me to get the hang of the stealth mechanics in first-person like this. You lose a lot of situational awareness, and it's tough to tell how concealed you are because you can't see your body. It seems like (on medium) it's lenient enough with detection ranges and AI behavior that I'll be able to get the hang of it, but with how biased it seems against run-and-gunning it, I think I would have preferred it in third-person. You do lose a little immersion, but you gain so much information about your position and environment that you would have in real life that I think it would be a worthwhile trade-off.
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| | 10rdBen
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 79
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Reply with quote | #19 |
I didn't see anywhere better to place this, but I just wanted to ask for other people's general impression -
What's the deal with the so-called "stealth"? Am I seriously meant to believe that these terrorist guys can't see me if I'm crouching? Not really impressed with "stealth", so far. Am I just being too harsh on the 8 year old game? Perfect Dark for the N64 did stealth so much better and it's of an identical vintage!
Maybe it's the wide open and dead flat design of the first level that's partly to blame - what are everyone else's thoughts?
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Ben Abraham
Read about my Thesis on music in videogames at: http://drgamelove.blogspot.com |
| | StolenName
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 34
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Reply with quote | #20 |
I know what you mean, but I've always made a habit of hiding in the shadows and crouching, so when I'm not seen, I just believe that I'm completely invisible, a shadow of the night.
You're right, though. Part of the reason is the enemy AI. After you've played for a while you begin to notice that it's generally rather dense. They won't flank you, they rarely use cover and they won't see you when you're crouching.
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Daniel Purvis
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| | mentis
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 138
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Reply with quote | #21 |
@ NordicNinja, StolenName, Bus, and Julian.
Regarding the SoL, I wasn't particularly thrown back to emotions of 9/11 as my previous post may have suggested. Though I live in the states, I'm not from this country, so my take on nationalism/patriotism is a bit different. However, I too found the irony is the information about the French group who committed the act. I just thought it was related to the missing twin towers in the game, and that itself was relevant to 9/11.
Also, the presence of FEMA is certainly influenced by my knowledge of events surrounding hurricane Katrina. All in all, each politically related reference in the game has taken on a very different meaning now, than it would have when the game first came out, and that is why I think it's even more relevant a story today.
@ 10rdBen and StolenName.
I do understand your issues with the stealth mechanics. It's rather simplistic at times, though once you start getting indoors you'll find it's less so. However, keep in mind that back then games didn't automatically try to incorporate AI conventions that you might be used to having today. Most any FPS of that time will have much simpler AI than what is considered the norm in that type of game now. Enemies that flank, take cover, duck in and out of places, that didn't start happening till a bit later I think.
Though there might have been some exceptions, such as the Perfect Dark you mentioned, by and large those features were still to come. It just means that this was an area of design where the industry was still growing. For me, as I haven't played very many new FPS games, it feels more like what I'm used to. I guess I play too many old games ^_^.
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| | 10rdBen
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 79
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Reply with quote | #22 |
Ah that's a very good point, Mentis. There are so many conventions that have built up in the FPS in the past eight years that it's so easy to forget that Deus Ex Preceeded Halo, even if only by one year. (I guess it's revealing that I'm comparing it as an FPS, but that's inevitable at this stage, I haven't really seen the parts of the game to convince me that it is otherwise.)
That said, I think it's interesting that there are these landmark games, like Halo and even Perfect Dark, that introduce or refine conventions. To my mind, DX, at least in regards the stealth mechanic, has failed to display the kind of refinement that I guess I was expecting from it. I mean, it's generally accepted that DX was landmark in this respect, right? That IS why we're playing it for the VGC.
So, someone tell me what part of it is supposed to be Landmark? The marriage of RPG and FPS elements? I'll admit it is quite a surprisingly prophetic and mature story. Still, comparisons to other FPS' like Halo and Perfect Dark are so far doing it no favours...
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Ben Abraham
Read about my Thesis on music in videogames at: http://drgamelove.blogspot.com |
| | mentis
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 138
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Reply with quote | #23 |
I don't think that Deus Ex is really landmark in terms of stealth mechanics. There are many games that have done it better, and the Thief games are probably a good example. I think the landmark aspects of this game are, as you stated, its marriage of FPS and RPG elements as well as it's storyline.
Though I would also add to that the element of choice. By giving you multiple paths to go down in order to complete missions, it creates different playing styles for each person to play the game. And that I think is landmark. You have the option of going through the game guns blazing, or completely stealth and non-lethal. Or anywhere in between. In addition, you have multiple options for getting past inanimate obstacles. Sometimes you can blow them up, or hack them, or find the switch/key. That's different than most other games where the solution is singular and linear. This, I believe to be one of the most important aspects of the game, which brings us really to player generated narrative as facilitated by the game's design.
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| | 10rdBen
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 79
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Reply with quote | #24 |
I think I'll have to play some more before I can make any meaningful comment on player generated story, but suffice to say that I am a big fan of it... in the right place. 
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Ben Abraham
Read about my Thesis on music in videogames at: http://drgamelove.blogspot.com |
| | CrashT
Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 250
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Reply with quote | #25 |
Dues Ex takes the core of it's stealth mechanics from the Thief games, the conceit being that if you are in shadows and not moving you are basically invisible. Though I'll grant that the Thief series, with the Light Gem, had a better feedback mechanism than Deus Ex does.
What makes Deus Ex special is a combination of things really. The story is not great, if it was a film it'd be a Steven Segal straight to video feature, but the way in which the story is told is something special. A lot of the narrative is presented obliquely and you have to piece together the full context of your actions through newspaper articles, datapads, e-mails and other in-world elements. The core mechanics of shooter, stealth, role playing, are not as well executed as they are in a dedicated shooter, stealth game, RPG, but the ability to choose between those different styles in one title is what makes Deus Ex special. One of the only games to really attempt that since, in a first person setting, is the Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines.
Also Deus Ex, was from an era where games were starting to focus more on contemporary environments over fantasy or science-fiction settings. The level of Liberty Island is apparently very accurate, as is Battery Park and Castle Clinton (Which come later), and even for somebody who's never been to any of those places, you can feel that they are more fully realised spaces that most game levels tend to be.
Anyway my current playthrough... Playing on Hard.
I had considered going for a more combat centric approach, but that fell by the wayside. In the end I reverted to my traditional Hacker\Thief archetype and used my skill points to Train myself in: Computer, Environmental Training, Lockpicking, Demolitions, Pistol.
I planned to make much more use of grenades that I had previously.
When offered I selected Mini-Crossbow. Even though it's probably better to choose the GEP gun as both other weapons can be found in the level itself.
It's interesting to note that rescuing Herman is not a mission priority.
Got into fight by accident after I startled some birds, and was forced to used Tranq darts to subdue the NSF guard.
I went around to UNATCO base, and grabbed some of the items there. I've made a conscious decision to limit what external knowledge, I bring to the game. So even though I know the first code is 0451 (As it is in BioShock, System Shock and System Shock 2), I used a multi-tool because in-game I hadn't found out the code.
I then headed through front doors of statue. Used a scrambler grenade on Bot then took detour to get sniper rifle and goggles from NSF guard. Found access code and used it on the computer panel to unlock front doors and turn the gun turrets on the NSF. Blew up gas drum with crossbow, and incapacitated the second patrolling NSF guard.
Planted a LAM under the alarm button and fired a normal Dart at an NSF guard on the other side of the laser grid. It caused three NSF to cluster around the doorway, before one moved to the alarm and set off the LAM, killing him and seriously wounding one other. Ran upstairs, and shot one enemy in head as he attempted to follow, then ran back down other side, with a second guard in pursuit, and ducked through vents to rescue Herman.
Gave him gun and watched his dispatch a guard right in front of me.
Next I went up the stairs inside. Hear a conversation between two guards on floor below NSF leader talking about how they have no chance now Herman has been freed. I've never heard that particular conversation before even though I've played the Liberty Island level dozens of times (At least five of which were when it was the demo).
The NSF Leader is rather preachy. Seems content to just stand around soapboxing about the state of the world.
Spoke to Paul, was told I was "doing well so far", even though I did kill some enemies.
Saved before speaking to Manderley.
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Justin Keverne
GamerTag: CrashT
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